mainstreaming kids not ready...

[Tenured]

why do mainstream teachers have to deal with kids who aren't ready? I mean, if I have to accomodate every test, give different consequences, more chances, etc, are they really ready for mainstream?

[Boxcar]

I feel they are.

I'm a big believer in differentiating the classroom. Given, my age level makes this more possible.

Accomadations are a special privilage for the child or a punishment for the teacher. They are intented to level the playing field, so everyone has the same number of cards.

[Tenured]

they don't level the playing field, they simply lower the standards for those who recieve the accomadations. Now, John and Suzy both have A's but the difference was, John had to earn his, Suzy had to have parents gripe loud enough so she could get an easier test

[Brit]

If the test is "easier", then it's not an accommodation, as far as i'm concerned. If a child is in my class, I test them on the same concepts as their peers, BUT I will adjust the manner of testing, the wording of the test, have the test read to them, scribed for them, let them type or use the prompts we used in class as cues, depending on accommodations needed. BUT THE TEST IS NOT EASIER. It tests the exact same concepts, but in a way that works for the child. If they can't handle that, then they get a D or an F or whatever their scores warrant. Let it be understood, though, that I WILL give that child more attention during the unit to make sure concepts are understood.

there's also a difference between accommodating and modifying where I work. both are legal terms as far as special education documentation, and modification DOES involve changing expectations from regular grade content. In that case, the kid is marked on entirely different criteria, and may be in the room only for social development.

[Tenured]

school is not about social interaction. If they truly need modifications, then maybe they don't need to be in there.

[Boxcar]

Yes, school is about social interaciton!

Have you not heard of the list?

1. cognitive development
2. soical development
3. emotional development
4. physical development

Accomadations are for specific children. They are not for the whole class. Thus, accomodations do not lower the bar for the others.

[Tenured]

that's for break time, PE, lunch, not social studies, math, english, etc.

You want a kid to be social, you let them in your class, not mine. I have too many standards to cover in a year to allow free time, play time, etc

[Martha]

I have taught students with special needs for 8 years now. I agree that the accommodations in some IEP's can be challenging to follow. That is why it is so important for the general ed staff to attend the case conferences and give their suggestions. Many of my conferences have only one gen ed teacher attend, they only stay for a short time, and they don't offer any suggestions even when I ask for them.

I think that there is a balance to be had in all of this. I don't believe that we want to return to the days of segregation when those who were different were shuttled off to special schools when they could have been accommodated in the general ed setting. I also believe that some special ed advocates have gone so far the other way that they are holding the rest of acadamia hostage to their demands. If a student with disabilities can learn social skills and some basic academic skills in a public school setting, I think that they should have that opportunity. I have also seen a totally paralyzed student, with visual impairments and a mental handicap, being fed through a feeding tube in the nurse's office during the school day. Can an individual in that situation truly be served best through inclusion? I am not sure that is the answer.

That being said, I also question the wisdom of putting students with severe emotional, behavioral, and autism spectrum disorders into a classroom where, even with an extra aide, the teacher's class time will often be spent settling problems or trying to help the one student needing assistance while the rest of the kids go without any help whatsoever. Special ed law states that all children, regardless of their disability, have the right to a free, appropriate, public education (FAPE), but they often do that to the extent that the majority of the kids are neglected.

Balance is a good thing, and common sense should prevail.

[merrynl]

...it is so important for the general ed staff to attend the case conferences and give their suggestions. Many of my conferences have only one gen ed teacher attend, they only stay for a short time, and they don't offer any suggestions even when I ask for them.

This is common practice in my school. They pick out one gen ed teacher to go to each annual case review. When we get there, we sign in, give a short report on how that kid does/behaves in our class, then leave unless the parents have any questions for us. We're not encouraged in any way to stay for the whole conference. Usually we're there less than 10 minutes. An aide comes in and watches whatever class we're teaching while we go to the conference. Generally, the administrator in the conference kind of pushes us out the door as soon as we've said our piece.

[Brit]

Perhaps I need to clarify. I teach in the primary panel, where social interaction is actually a PART of our curriculum (studnets are graded on appropriate speaking behaviour, turn-taking, and fair play). therefore, it's entirely appropriate for students with special needs to bein the classroom solely for social development. ALSO, it is a proven fact that students with disabilities (in the case of the studies I am familiar with, Downs Syndrome in particular) progress much further with integration than in isolated classes. In my school(s) these students are a part of the class, and are expected to follow the same behavioural code as all other students; they simply are working on different learning goals.

Tenured, I assume you teach in the secondary panel. I understand that differentiating at that level might be more of a challenge for the teacher, and that the nature of the subject matter is so much more complex that more book-work may be required. However, despite your belief that your classroom is not the place for social development, social activites are going on right under your nose -- social stratification (cliques, social groupings) is reinforced simply by where students sit and who answers questions and how students covertly respond to other students' answers (rolled eyes, significant looks, leaning forward to listen, leaning back to ignore). What happens in your room can affect social interaction and status outside of your room. Developing an understanding of that and the ability to cope with and involve themselves in this kind of interaction can be key for individuals with disabilities who will later enter the workforce in some capacity and deal with it there.

I get the impression that there's not a lot of talking between peers in your room. Studies have shown (and I'll look the studies up and reference them for you if you're skeptical -- they're in my psych-ed books somewhere) that most individuals learn best when they verbalize information, or, better yet, TEACH others (this is why I like the teach/okay command in power teaching so much). If you're NOT using this strategy in your classroom, it might be worth trying, say with one unit of your program, as an experiement.

[Tenured]

They can talk during lunch. I have 55 minutes to get through the day's standards, and last I checked, social interaction wasn't on my list of state standards.

[Boxcar]

Social interaction isn't just chatty conversation. It is working on a group project, debating, making a speech that is well-recived, ect.

[Lorrayne]

It sounds as if you are working alone with planning teaching and assessing all the students. You sound tired, frustrated and exhausted. At the moment what is happening in your classroom is not good for anyone, not you, not any of the students. See who can help you plan different ways to present the assessments- is there a volunteer parent/grandparent/secretary who can give the assessments orally. How can students help each other to learn, record reflect and present findings. You are demonstrating ways for your students to respond to others in the future - a very important lesson that should be a positive one for your students. BUT you should not be doing this alone- seek no demand some support from your colleagues.

[Tenured]

Social interaction isn't just chatty conversation. It is working on a group project, debating, making a speech that is well-recived, ect.

none of which are on my standards.


Group work is over-rated, one kid does all the work, 3 others talk the entire time and copy at the end.

[silvana]

Tenured the key skill in group situations is the talk....you are developing process and not product.....How old are you? The globalisation of knowledge means you need to create learners who can keep on learning all their lives so they can get jobs which have not yet been created....process is everything......
We have moved from a manufacturing economy to a knowledge based one.....communication via a variety of media will be key .....and if you have one student doing all the work model group work better.......show them how it is done!

[Boxcar]

I think that the idea of teaching that learning needs to be continually is so important. Not just for the sake of scholarly work, but for one's own life perspective. Being able to see that failure is part of growing will help guard against downward spirils and the like.

[Tenured]

Tenured the key skill in group situations is the talk....you are developing process and not product.....How old are you? The globalisation of knowledge means you need to create learners who can keep on learning all their lives so they can get jobs which have not yet been created....process is everything......
We have moved from a manufacturing economy to a knowledge based one.....communication via a variety of media will be key .....and if you have one student doing all the work model group work better.......show them how it is done!

if you honestly think that middleschoolers need "socialization practice" you simply haven't taught middleschool. Socialization is the priority to that age and all bad grades revolve around inappropriate socialization. The key isn't to appease them and give them more, teach them that there is a time and a place for it, and during my lesson is not it.


"Can we work in groups / Can we work with a friend" means "Can we split up the work so we can have more time to talk"


2 kids per group means "you do half-I'll do half and we'll trade answers later"

add people to the group, shorten up what everyone has to do.

100 questions can be finished in 3 minutes if you have 1 kid doing 1 question each, then getting the other 99 questions from the others.

And on top of that, now you have 52 minutes left in class with nothing to do.

You haven't taught them anything about socialization they don't already know and now you have to babysit for close to an hour. Good luck


I know how group work goes, I've been in it. I loved it. I was the talker, meaning, the one who had to present. Let the 3 smart ones do all the work, and I'll sit back and read what they tell me.

Plus, what happens to the 3 when the 4th WILL NOT pull their own weight? (yeah, I know, that would never happen would it?)

Until grading isn't done on an individual basis, I refuse to let let one kid's lack bring down the others in the group just so they can practice something they are already experts at.... Should we teach them to gossip, too, while we're at it?

[Boxcar]

Okay... Thinking about typically developing studnets, I tend to agree that children in the upper grades often do take this attitude.

As for students with special needs, thier social levels are often drastically different than thier cronological ages. They do need socialization practice.

An important thing to remember is what it says in the ADA. If an individuals needs fundamentally change a program philosophy or are "unreasonable", that individaul must find alternate ways in which to have these needs met. The institution or persons incapable of meeting said needs should provide direction or information to the declined individual.

So? Well, this means that if a teacher doesn't offer group work in the classroom as part of a philosohy or innate nature of the classroom routine, that teacher may be allowed to refuse to meet that specific need. However, the teacher should offer some guidence upon request. This might mean suggesting that the indivdual in question join a club.

Directors in Early Childhood are quite lucky. NAEYC has created a chart to help determine if a child with special needs can be admitted into a mainstream classroom and/or center. I will have to look at the chart, but it might be something that would help in the upper fields as well.

[Brit]

"Can we work in groups / Can we work with a friend" means "Can we split up the work so we can have more time to talk"


2 kids per group means "you do half-I'll do half and we'll trade answers later"

add people to the group, shorten up what everyone has to do.

100 questions can be finished in 3 minutes if you have 1 kid doing 1 question each, then getting the other 99 questions from the others.

And on top of that, now you have 52 minutes left in class with nothing to do.



good on the kids for applying a logical solution to completing work efficiently!

If your class consists of sitting there and doing 100 questions without discussion, how are your kids improving? If they didn't have the skill on the first ten questions, how does doing 90 more change that EFFECTIVELY? If socialization is their forte, then build from that! Let them discuss the answers so that they can help each other gain a better understanding!

Essentially, you're saying "here's what you're good at and like to do. Now, DON'T DO IT. Do what I tell you to do, even if it's boring and you think it's useless." where is the respect for your students?

Great ideas come from collaboration, and more and more in the work force, employers are looking for team players. You're not helping your students build life skills. you're just trying to cover the standards. All teachers SHOULD be focussed on doing both.

I know I can't change your mind or your teaching style, but I'm going to tell you that I've seen very effective teaching in middle school that allowed the kids to interact. It was effective because the kids were taught how to interact effectively. I've been handed classes that were expected to sit there and shut up and classes that were expected to interact. Neither was any easier to handle. guess which one had the most engaged and interested students, though. I believe that kids who are engaged retain and understand material better. If your kids were talking in well-designed, accountable interactive scenarios, maybe your test scores would go up. I get the feeling that you're not willing to put in the work to design such scenarios or to try something outside what you are used to. Each to their own.

[Bananas]

How a lot of the groups work will vary, depending on the expectations and structure the teacher places on the group. An active teacher in the room constantly circulating will circumvent a lot of your concerns.

[wig]

This year I had a class with 40% of them with identified learning problems. We did a lot of group work.

They learned far more working in a group than alone. Alone I learned what they did not know. Working in a group I was able to assess what they knew. Each member of the group has a job. I am circulating, spending time with each group. All members are accountable for the work done by the entire group. Knowing how to structure your groups make all the difference in the world.

Accommodations for testing does not mean making the test easier. It means changing the format, or allowing more time.

Tenured: I am concerned about your lack of empathy for students that through no fault of their own have a different learning style or have difficulty learning. I always have concerns when teachers use their tenured status to do what they want instead of what is best. I hope I am interpreting your posts incorrectly and you are following the IEP despite your frustrations.

Being a teacher means that we do our best to reach all children at their level. This does not absolve them of any responsibility toward their own learning. But we cannot give up because they do not respond to our preferred method of teaching.

The following is an excellent article by Bill Page. I pretty much agree with the summary boxes although not necessarily with all of his statements.

When Is Student Failure The Teacher’s Fault?
http://teachers.net/gazette/JUL08/page/

[Boxcar]

Tenured, what subject do you teach?

[Tenured]

Okay... Thinking about typically developing studnets, I tend to agree that children in the upper grades often do take this attitude.

I'm thinking of middle/high when I'm giving my POV

As for students with special needs, thier social levels are often drastically different than thier cronological ages. They do need socialization practice.

SPED kids bring down the other kids more often than the other kids pull them up. This site is full of situations that say even good kids will try and shed that "teacher pet" tag by acting out. Same case here. Whoever has the more dominant personality wins out, and lower kids tend to have those as a defense mechanism if for nothing else...


good on the kids for applying a logical solution to completing work efficiently!

by cheating??? Seems to me when you get answers from somebody else, without doing any research does nothing as far as learning goes.


#1 is George Washington
#2 is Ben Franklin
#3 is x=432
#4 is H2O
#5 (the one question I have to do) USA declared it's independance on July 4, 1776
#6 is Hurricane Katrina


So tell me, Brit, from this lesson, what is the only thing you learned from it? I know number 1 is G.W. and number 2 is Ben Frankling, but what good does that do me on the test when the question is "who was the US's first president?

If your class consists of sitting there and doing 100 questions without discussion, how are your kids improving? If they didn't have the skill on the first ten questions, how does doing 90 more change that EFFECTIVELY?

if they are having problems, they ask me to explain it right (as opposed to asking a neighbor who will simply give an answer, and not actually help. Or worse yet, tell them how to do it wrong, thus reinforcing the thing I don't want.

I'm the teacher, not their peers, let me do what I've gone to school for my entire life to do...

If socialization is their forte, then build from that! Let them discuss the answers so that they can help each other gain a better understanding!

you seem to be under the misconception that they want to use that forte to better their learning. groups of kids in general, are lazy and drag their feet when it comes to schoolwork. When they are in groups, they are talking about susy dating johnny, not the subject at hand.

It does more harm than good.


Essentially, you're saying "here's what you're good at and like to do. Now, DON'T DO IT. Do what I tell you to do, even if it's boring and you think it's useless." where is the respect for your students?

when what they are good at is inappropriate, I'm under no obligation to allow it. They are all good at video games, too, am I now expected to work Super Mario into my lesson plans?


Great ideas come from collaboration, and more and more in the work force, employers are looking for team players. You're not helping your students build life skills. you're just trying to cover the standards. All teachers SHOULD be focussed on doing both.

thanks to NCLB, my job isn't put at risk if I don't cover lifeskills. It is if I don't cover standards. Self-preservation IMHO.


I know I can't change your mind or your teaching style, but I'm going to tell you that I've seen very effective teaching in middle school that allowed the kids to interact. It was effective because the kids were taught how to interact effectively. I've been handed classes that were expected to sit there and shut up and classes that were expected to interact. Neither was any easier to handle. guess which one had the most engaged and interested students, though. I believe that kids who are engaged retain and understand material better. If your kids were talking in well-designed, accountable interactive scenarios, maybe your test scores would go up. I get the feeling that you're not willing to put in the work to design such scenarios or to try something outside what you are used to. Each to their own.

cute, nice little pot-shot there. However, I'm teaching the lifeskill that life isn't always about socialization and doing what's fun all the time. Sometimes, just sometimes, life has you do stuff you don't always want to do and you simply have to grit your teeth and do it.

imagine going to your admin and saying "no Principal Smith, I don't think I going to put my grades in, in a timely fashion because I'm not engaged in it enough. Maybe if you gave me some comp time later, I'll do it."



How a lot of the groups work will vary, depending on the expectations and structure the teacher places on the group. An active teacher in the room constantly circulating will circumvent a lot of your concerns.


yes, I took Intro to Education, too. I have the basics down. YOu assume that the only reason to give a #1-10 assignment is so the teacher can park their kiester behind the desk and read a newspaper.

Tenured, what subject do you teach?


middle/high school Social studies. But in my area, that is the one subject that they DO NOT pull SPED kids out of. I had 2 classes this year that was 50/50 as far as SPED/mainstream went. 1 honors class (that still had two SPED kids) and 2 that were general. I get the SPED teachers mad by pointing out that I teach more SPED kids than they do a day and have more per period than they do, AND I don't get an extra planning (ie- their team teaching classes) to do my paperwork

his year I had a class with 40% of them with identified learning problems. We did a lot of group work.

They learned far more working in a group than alone. Alone I learned what they did not know. Working in a group I was able to assess what they knew. Each member of the group has a job. I am circulating, spending time with each group. All members are accountable for the work done by the entire group. Knowing how to structure your groups make all the difference in the world.

And I felt that my kids learned more in individual work. WHo's right and who's wrong, now?

I hold them all individually accountable and circulate too. But I have a question, how can you hold each member of the group accountable for the entire group's work? How fair is it to YOU as an individual when you get stuck with one kid who simply WON'T pull their weight? What ends up happening, so YOU don't have your grade suffer, you pick up the slack of the one who isn't working. Now, you've done twice the work, slacker has done nothing, but both get the same grade. Sounds really fair to me.


Accommodations for testing does not mean making the test easier. It means changing the format, or allowing more time.

ie - make it easier.


SPED teachers think test accoms means changing a 4 choice multiple choice test into a 2 choice mutliple choice test. Statistics say that if you guess at every question on an unmodified test, you'll get a 25%, statistics say that if you guess at ever question on a modified one, you'll get a 50%. Beat the odds and you pull a 38% on test 1
Beat the odds and you pull a passing grade on test 2



Tenured: I am concerned about your lack of empathy for students that through no fault of their own have a different learning style or have difficulty learning. I always have concerns when teachers use their tenured status to do what they want instead of what is best. I hope I am interpreting your posts incorrectly and you are following the IEP despite your frustrations.

I have concerns with teachers who think that to educate, a teacher must be a performer or an animated show.

I present, they practice, I reinforce, they practice, I review, I test. I review and practice as much as needed but until grades are done in groups, and not individually, I'm not allowing group work. I refuse to allow lower level kids to bring down higher level peers.

Being a teacher means that we do our best to reach all children at their level. This does not absolve them of any responsibility toward their own learning. But we cannot give up because they do not respond to our preferred method of teaching.

Being a teacher means I give everyone the same opportunity for success (ie - not holding their socio-economic status against them, their race, etc) and work with everyone equally.


The following is an excellent article by Bill Page. I pretty much agree with the summary boxes although not necessarily with all of his statements.

When Is Student Failure The Teacher’s Fault?
http://teachers.net/gazette/JUL08/page/

When is student failure actually the KID'S FAULT?

[Boxcar]

Oops... I asked you a question already asked... Sorry.

You know, I think S.S. is a subject where children may need pull-out. Why? Because... A student who is not at or near the developmental age of peers may need the social skills and community concepts taught in lower level S.S. cirriculms. S.S. for zero to eight is all about social skills, housing, transportation, community, ect. A child does not have a good sense of time, chronological events, past - present - future, ect. until the third grade. If a middle school student is severely delayed in development in these areas, a mainstream classroom may not be the right place. It is concievable that a child may be four or more years behind in content areas. A child who does not understand his or her own little piece of the world or his or her own history cannot generalize or comprehend a bigger time scale.

[Tenured]

They don't pull out here because in Florida, Social Studies isn't on the FCAT (NCLB) They pull out for Reading, math and Science, the stick all the low ones in a team taught class. I can get into my gripes with that joke of a classroom model, but that's really not for this thread in particular.

Social studies, despite the name, isn't about social personal skills. If kids need practice in that, (and some do) there is a special class for that. In my class, they are learning cause and affect in History, tracking hurricanes in geography, timelines, the environment, population. Nothing about working together with each other or group work. I can cover everything I need with reading, teacher led class discussions, book work (practice) review and testing. Group projects that 2/4 do the work and the other 2 sitback and ride off the other 2.

[wig]

You know, I think S.S. is a subject where children may need pull-out. If a middle school student is severely delayed in development in these areas, a mainstream classroom may not be the right place. It is concievable that a child may be four or more years behind in content areas.

Not only conceivable, but probable. I teach 4 levels of SS and I agree with you in some respects. But we aren't given the option to have them pulled out. Sometimes I have to modify the assignment that includes vocab they still haven't grasped. Depending on the needs, I sometimes need to expect only the fact portions of the lesson. Last spring my students took a "tour" of Africa choosing one place in each of the five regions to visit for three days each, and write a diary including certain requirements, find a current event, and a picture. This was way too much for my 70 IQ student. He did one place. My 80 IQ did two and compared and contrasted them. The SPED teacher helped them with the writing portion in Language Arts.

Our SPED teacher is very good at helping me work out any accmodations and modifications I need to make to meet the IEP.

I would never use group work for everything. I would never use individual work for everything. The key is using different approaches.

Originally Posted by Tenure
How can you hold each member of the group accountable for the entire group's work?

When they are assessed. I don't grade them on their group work.

Originally Posted by Tenure
#1 is George Washington
#2 is Ben Franklin
#3 is x=432
#4 is H2O
#5 (the one question I have to do) USA declared it's independance on July 4, 1776
#6 is Hurricane Katrina



I would never give the above assignment to be done as a group. I have to agree that it would not be effective. My group work is a means to an end and it's never a bunch of questions to answer. Maybe that is the difference. Each student has a "job" and yes, it is based on ability. But even if my SPED child has a only a small portion to contribute based on his/her abilities he/she IS contributing.

Originally Posted by Tenure
I have concerns with teachers who think that to educate, a teacher must be a performer or an animated show.

What did I miss? Who is a performer or puts on an animated show? I can assure you, it is not me. If I ever did that my students would die laughing because they know that is NOT my style of teaching.

Originally Posted by Tenure
When is student failure actually the KID'S FAULT?

As I said, I did not agree with everything the author said, but I do agree with the summary boxes in the article. When a child refuses to respond, then it is his responsibility. When the parents refuse to support and help, it is their responsibility. The key word is efuse - which is not synonomous with incapable. I know I am guilty of not trying everything.. I too have time issues. But I do make an effort to reach each child.


Frankly, Tenure, I strongly suspect that you were not posting to get ideas, but to state what is for you an absolute, so, you will not agree with or even consider anything we have to say. I still think it has to do with style of teaching and how much a teacher is willing to work with what he/she is given. I will say that it would be much easier for me, and frankly for the student, if they were not mainstreamed. I have no doubt that you do well with your "regular" students. But that is not the plate that is handed to us.

[Boxcar]

A bit off topic but...

I like the idea of going on a tour of Africa. I wonder if I could modify this for my older preschoolers. I want to get into more geography with them. They adore Dramatic Play. I'll have to see how I can use this. It sounds like fun.

[silvana]

Tenure is everything I never want to be, I realise that is personal and a value judgement, I also strongly suspect he is an argumentative poster just assuming another name to get a rise out of people. Group work is a key life skill about working with others and developing the ability for group communication.....process is key....so if I were you tenure I would not waste time arguing on here but actually go and find out what key skills are.....do you wonder why American education is so low in performance against countries like Norway and Japan ...those countries are way ahead, even though they have less money per head.....if America is to close the gap ,teachers have to not teach to a test, but develop thinking and process skills, which includes socialisation....directed and modelled not just happening be cause the kids want it.
Please don't bother responding to this Tenure.....your opinion like your posts strike me as the oddest..... and totally incompatible with my notion of what it means to teach......call me sentimental

[wig]

Tenure is everything I never want to be, I realise that is personal and a value judgement, I also strongly suspect he is an argumentative poster just assuming another name to get a rise out of people.

Tenure.....your opinion like your posts strike me as the oddest..... and totally incompatible with my notion of what it means to teach.....

And because a few(if not more) of us had very similar thoughts to yours, and the fact that the tone of posts sounded very familiar, we asked addict to keep an eye on him.

Just as we suspected, Tenure is/was Chocolate New Orleans/Tooky Williams.

He is "no more"! :hammer:

Hell hath no fury than a teacher standing up for the educational rights of ALL kids.

[silvana]

Thank you Wendy =) your post is literally music to my ears....I so did not want to get mad because you would'nt like me when I am mad GGGRRR!!!!

[wig]

Silly girl. Of course I like you - good or bad. As you said, I am SUCH a pacifier. :laugh:

[silvana]

GOOD OR BAD whattttttt!!! I am good I am good......maybe =/

[Boxcar]

Ah... and dillusional...